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Thread: Unloading some thoughts

  1. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Distantpeak View Post
    If you watch that Sam Harris video... you'll realise it's almost irrational to think like that.... even though we all do generally... it's almost like life has brainwashed us into believing.... the unbelievable...
    Not almost, it is irrational. There is no logical argument against it.
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  2. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Distantpeak View Post
    It is all to do with you... but "you" are perhaps not what you believe you are... your "free will" is perhaps not what you perceive it to be... we are all sophisticated organic computers...

    Once AI's have "free will" (Probably in the next 25 years) we will all begin to understand better what our own free will really is....
    Given that free will doesn't exist, why didn't you use the term consciousness? That's the more accurate term to what you're being trying to explain to others.

  3. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zablive View Post
    I hope your new friends will be able to fix your knees etc because you'll be old by then.
    But why should they give a flying fck about you, pray tell?
    Maybe because they understand the difference between empathy and compassion.

  4. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGrass View Post
    As for AI issue, if one day they can make AI that understands why 'Soldiers coming home' videos on the Youtube are so popular, then I'll start to worry. But until then, meh.
    That's a very simple reason and basic biological reason, I don't understand why you don't understand

  5. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zablive View Post
    But why should they give a flying fck about you, pray tell?
    They won't care, much the same why don't care about micro organisms that don't effect us.

  6. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by RakThai View Post
    I live by the "Camping ground rule", leave the place in better condition as you found it...
    No need for Matthew or Luke, just common decency.. And it works for places, people, relationships, etc..
    The philosophical argument would be "what is better"

    As an example take the "Camping ground rule", would it not be better for the "Camping ground" for it not to be that in the first place? or are you claiming that because you made it a "Camping ground" it now better? So those that decided this impose their will?

  7. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuzzy View Post
    Crosby Still and Nash...
    No, Joni Mitchell and she was 100% right that is all we are.

  8. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by phaisan View Post
    Given that free will doesn't exist, why didn't you use the term consciousness? That's the more accurate term to what you're being trying to explain to others.
    I probably should have... or being "self-aware" maybe. That's the delusion that makes us think that our consciousness is non-determinant...
    My only experience was in a pie making factory managing the gravy team


  9. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Distantpeak View Post
    I probably should have... or being "self-aware" maybe. That's the delusion that makes us think that our consciousness is non-determinant...
    As I think I have said, most wouldn't be able to handle this concept, and dismiss it instead of dealing with it.

  10. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by phaisan View Post
    As I think I have said, most wouldn't be able to handle this concept, and dismiss it instead of dealing with it.
    Or handled the concept and treated it as such, a weak theory without any evidence and unpractical to base a world view on..
    Rather than elevate it to a dogma similar to creation...

  11. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by RakThai View Post
    Or handled the concept and treated it as such, a weak theory without any evidence and unpractical to base a world view on..
    Rather than elevate it to a dogma similar to creation...
    Seriously, I expected more from you! I find it hard to believe you're so ignorant (well maybe that's an overstatement to be kind) but wow.

    really WOW!

  12. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by phaisan View Post
    Seriously, I expected more from you! I find it hard to believe you're so ignorant (well maybe that's an overstatement to be kind) but wow.

    really WOW!
    So your theories are facts, and anyone opposing is ignorant?

    I find that unphilosphical and dangerous! Because that is exactly the reasoning of religions..

  13. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by RakThai View Post
    So your theories are facts, and anyone opposing is ignorant?
    No its not fact as you well know!, but unless you can give a rational argument to the contrary then it is ignorant. I await your contrary argument with bated breath!

    Until that time my statement stands without valid rebuttal. "You are ignorant"

  14. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by phaisan View Post
    No its not fact as you well know!, but unless you can give a rational argument to the contrary then it is ignorant. I await your contrary argument with bated breath!

    Until that time my statement stands without valid rebuttal. "You are ignorant"
    I choose this ignorance out of free will! 555
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  15. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by RakThai View Post
    I choose this ignorance out of free will! 555
    Explains a lot about you! The best of happyness to you in your ignorance and keep searching for those answers you seek but don't want to find.

  16. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by phaisan View Post
    Explains a lot about you! The best of happyness to you in your ignorance and keep searching for those answers you seek but don't want to find.
    Let's turn this around and assume you are right! There is no free will whatsoever.. and all the world is aware of this.

    Then, should there be any laws? could people be accountable fro what they say or do? They have no choice in the first place, so will always will do what their driving force tells them to do..
    Should people "make an effort"? at anything? Since they do not control their own faith, why try?
    Of course this will quickly lead to the end of democracy and world-wide anarchy, but hey, that was always going to happen anyways..

    So, what I am saying, is even when you are 100% right, I still don't like the taught of promoting this.
    And in my selfish life I need a reason for living, a purpose for getting up in the morning, some sort of cause to spent my day on..
    And I definitely need to be able to tell my children that they have choices in life! That they can create their own future!

    So yes, I chose my ignorance happily and deliberately, because it improves the quality of my and my children's lives!
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  17. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by RakThai View Post
    Let's turn this around and assume you are right! There is no free will whatsoever.. and all the world is aware of this.

    Then, should there be any laws? could people be accountable fro what they say or do? They have no choice in the first place, so will always will do what their driving force tells them to do..
    Should people "make an effort"? at anything? Since they do not control their own faith, why try?
    Of course this will quickly lead to the end of democracy and world-wide anarchy, but hey, that was always going to happen anyways..

    So, what I am saying, is even when you are 100% right, I still don't like the taught of promoting this.
    And in my selfish life I need a reason for living, a purpose for getting up in the morning, some sort of cause to spent my day on..
    And I definitely need to be able to tell my children that they have choices in life! That they can create their own future!

    So yes, I chose my ignorance happily and deliberately, because it improves the quality of my and my children's lives!
    You are maybe looking at it in the wrong way.... try this...

    Imagine a robot being so sophisticated that it develops a "free will". Makes decisions based on past experiences... may even be so sophisticated that the robot is able to paint paintings that are unique, but equally fantastic... and able to write books that sell better than the Bible... the robot also develops senses like us... smell, touch, taste etc... and even develops emotions...

    ...but also that robots make mistakes occasionally... something goes wrong... maybe a small mistake that leads to spilt milk... or it may be a big mistake that leads to deaths of other robots or even deaths of humans...

    At some point they reach a level of sophistication that you start blaming robots for things... even though you know all their actions are based on nothing but experiences and the initial pre-programmed software.. or robot DNA if you will...

    The robot will become a responsible entity... and will be accountable... and it's decisions and actions will be seen as "robot-will" ..but eventually at some point they will be seen as having "free will" like humans... and will be seen as responsible for their actions... even though they are just robots... robots based on casual determinism perhaps?

    That is the way I look at free will... it doesn't make you blameless or fatalistic... it's just that you understand better what your "free will" is created from... actions/reactions... cause and effect... and gives you a different perspective...
    Last edited by Quarky; 28th December 2017 at 22:51.
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  18. #238
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    I'd like to believe I'm in charge of my own actions, but a lot of research in neuroscience in the last few years has been very illuminating in this area, and points to the contrary. I don't have links to the articles I've been reading, but the studies are there and shouldn't be hard to find. For the most part it seems to be a sort of trick the brain plays on itself. The illusion of choice appears to be due to the exceptionally short lag between an action occurring, and the mind registering the fact; as in the case of suddenly swatting a mosquito that has just bitten you.

    In this case the organism has already decided to take action on it's on accord. The muscles have tensed, and the arm is in motion when the brain registers it all. But because the time-frame between the two events is so short, the conscious mind believes the latter has preceded the former, which creates the illusion of free will.

    Now, are Rak's concerns about the implications of this sort of thing valid? I think it's relative. The first point relates to the individual, and how it will affect motivation. My immediate response is to completely dismiss the point as it's largely philosophical. I don't buy into the free will fantasy, but I'm not bothered by it either. I consider myself pretty happy and I enjoy everything life has to offer, and don't shy away from the negatives either. It is what it is, you take the good with the bad. So this concern is not a universal feeling, and therefore not real. Few things in the world of man are real. Gravity, for instance, is one of them, but something like morality isn't. That's just lines in the sand we've come up with so we can live in highly unnatural environments like towns and cities, and engage in weird shit like going to an office everyday within close proximity of all these other monkeys without killing each other. So it's important to be philosophically aware enough to separate the wheat from the chaff and not believe in nonsense like a need for meaning or motivation to get up everyday. Those are ideas in the mind. You need meaning because you believe you do, Otherwise we're not different to any other animal, Does a cat need motivation to get up in the morning? But then again, how is any of this determined if there is no free will? Is it a Matrix style type of thing where a few lucky freaks get to have a break from the fantasy and see the world as it is? Who knows.

    Second issue, will it effect the larger society? Well that's even more relative. Come here and ask the Chinese is they give two shits about the question of free will. Will it have implications back in the West? Perhaps. But so have many other revolutions in science and philosophy. For centuries, the Church was worried that new theories about the universe would plunge society into chaos if they became mainstream. And they did. But not for the worse. And in this case if a few decide to slit their wrists because of old, outdated mind frames that sees the individual at the center of the universe and worthless without complete autonomy then so be it. I personally classify these concerns as overly dogmatic and prefer to plunge head on into new ideas and see what happens. Our civilization is too fucking over-rated anyway. We could do with a little anarchy these days.
    Last edited by Bacon; 29th December 2017 at 00:29.
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  19. #239
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    This discussion is becoming to sound like two members on thaivisa arguing with each other, and both having a dictionary on their lap to back up their statements of so called "facts".

  20. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon View Post
    I'd like to believe I'm in charge of my own actions, but a lot of research in neuroscience in the last few years has been very illuminating in this area, and points to the contrary. I don't have links to the articles I've been reading, but the studies are there and shouldn't be hard to find. For the most part it seems to be a sort of trick the brain plays on itself. The illusion of choice appears to be due to the exceptionally short lag between an action occurring, and the mind registering the fact; as in the case of suddenly swatting a mosquito that has just bitten you.

    In this case the organism has already decided to take action on it's on accord. The muscles have tensed, and the arm is in motion when the brain registers it all. But because the time-frame between the two events is so short, the conscious mind believes the latter has preceded the former, which creates the illusion of free will.

    Now, are Rak's concerns about the implications of this sort of thing valid? I think it's relative. The first point relates to the individual, and how it will affect motivation. My immediate response is to completely dismiss the point as it's largely philosophical. I don't buy into the free will fantasy, but I'm not bothered by it either. I consider myself pretty happy and I enjoy everything life has to offer, and don't shy away from the negatives either. It is what it is, you take the good with the bad. So this concern is not a universal feeling, and therefore not real. Few things in the world of man are real. Gravity, for instance, is one of them, but something like morality isn't. That's just lines in the sand we've come up with so we can live in highly unnatural environments like towns and cities, and engage in weird shit like going to an office everyday within close proximity of all these other monkeys without killing each other. So it's important to be philosophically aware enough to separate the wheat from the chaff and not believe in nonsense like a need for meaning or motivation to get up everyday. Those are ideas in the mind. You need meaning because you believe you do, Otherwise we're not different to any other animal, Does a cat need motivation to get up in the morning? But then again, how is any of this determined if there is no free will? Is it a Matrix style type of thing where a few lucky freaks get to have a break from the fantasy and see the world as it is? Who knows.

    Second issue, will it effect the larger society? Well that's even more relative. Come here and ask the Chinese is they give two shits about the question of free will. Will it have implications back in the West? Perhaps. But so have many other revolutions in science and philosophy. For centuries, the Church was worried that new theories about the universe would plunge society into chaos if they became mainstream. And they did. But not for the worse. And in this case if a few decide to slit their wrists because of old, outdated mind frames that sees the individual at the center of the universe and worthless without complete autonomy then so be it. I personally classify these concerns as overly dogmatic and prefer to plunge head on into new ideas and see what happens. Our civilization is too fucking over-rated anyway. We could do with a little anarchy these days.
    Reading this reminds me of Kevin and Perry...

    "Yeah, but no..., but yeah, but no... but yeah..." ...55


    There is no answer...

    But what I love... is that there are so many questions....
    My only experience was in a pie making factory managing the gravy team


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