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Thread: Theravada and reincarnation.

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    ประเทศไทยเพื่อน Founding Member Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน jontymate's Avatar
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    Theravada and reincarnation.

    I would say Dao is more Buddhist than most, as in spending time at the wat etc. I pose it is more for meditation medication than anything else. I do not believe it is good luck for our lives. I do believe it is a good practice for her to put up with me 555 and a passport to an internal holiday to equilibrium for herself.

    Reincarnation: I have never been able to get a straight answer from her on the subject. Even blank looks. It is really one of the Taboo subjects that we have together. This came from early on when she came to live with me and the ghost’s and spirits and the order of the house had to be just so. Tapping my plate with a spoon was inviting bad into our house etc.

    There were arguments about how that relates to Theravada Buddhism. With no reasonable answer that she could convey at the time. Those with TG know never back them into a corner without a get out clause. Or that is the way it is with her. The subject is better taboo than the conflict it causes.

    Thus the question remains. Do Thais believe in reincarnation??
    "Man cannot discover New Oceans unless he has the courage to lose sight of the shore" 
      
       
       
         
       
      
     

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    Uber Star Soi wanderer Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน Zablive's Avatar
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    I don't think the "pee lawks" and reincarnation are incompatible concepts.

    The pee lawks "exist" because the correct procedures were not taken to send them on their way to Buddha for reincarnation, as I understand it.

    That is why, if you have a Thai "family" and you die, there can never be a simple die-funeral-cremate/burial process.

    EDIT:
    This is not dissimilar to the Catholic concept of " Purgatory" where your spirit goes to be judged and cleansed (purged) prior to entering Heaven.
    Non-Catholics apparently don't have the privilege of this purging and are judged "at the Gate".
    (or so I was told when they tried to convert me).
    Last edited by Zablive; 9th January 2014 at 11:42.
    jontymate likes this.

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    Uber Star Soi wanderer Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน Dupree's Avatar
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    All Catholics are born with Original Sin because Adam screwed up the Garden of Eden. They need to be baptized before they die, toot suite, or they will have to wait to get into heaven forever in Limbo. Apparently there are no teachings on what happens to the little Limbonians. Tough break..
    I just girl in bar. Buy me one dink?....

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    The artist formally known as Wabbits Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน wabbits's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dupree View Post
    All Catholics are born with Original Sin because Adam screwed up the Garden of Eden. They need to be baptized before they die, toot suite, or they will have to wait to get into heaven forever in Limbo. Apparently there are no teachings on what happens to the little Limbonians. Tough break..
    Imagine having to do the limbo for eternity that would be hell....
    .

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    Uber Star Soi wanderer Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน Dupree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wabbits View Post
    Imagine having to do the limbo for eternity that would be hell....
    And they can't even walk yet...
    I just girl in bar. Buy me one dink?....

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    Uber Star Soi wanderer Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน RakThai's Avatar
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    This is very interesting...

    The way I see it, Thai Buddhism is a mix of Buddhism, animism and some Hinduism..
    The house ghosts and lucky rituals have little to do with Buddhism, and really conflict with the basic Buddhist concepts..
    But they are integrated in the way Buddhism is taught in Thailand..

    Same as the Thai class system conflicts with Buddhism, but is taught in the way it exists, almost like the Hindu cast system..
    Where Karma becomes not the freedom to develop spiritually without any limit or borders, but more like acceptance of the faith that your are bound to certain limitations because of how and where you were born..

    Interesting is that the last historic Buddha, Buddha Shakyamuni, was born a Hindu..
    He was Siddhārtha Gautama, a royal, who abandoned that life to live an ascetic life before becoming a teacher and reaching enlightenment.
    The example he set was beyond class and cast, beyond religion in an organized way, and beyond obligations in family and social sense..

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    ประเทศไทยเพื่อน Founding Member Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน jontymate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RakThai View Post
    This is very interesting...

    The way I see it, Thai Buddhism is a mix of Buddhism, animism and some Hinduism..
    The house ghosts and lucky rituals have little to do with Buddhism, and really conflict with the basic Buddhist concepts..
    But they are integrated in the way Buddhism is taught in Thailand..

    Same as the Thai class system conflicts with Buddhism, but is taught in the way it exists, almost like the Hindu cast system..
    Where Karma becomes not the freedom to develop spiritually without any limit or borders, but more like acceptance of the faith that your are bound to certain limitations because of how and where you were born..

    Interesting is that the last historic Buddha, Buddha Shakyamuni, was born a Hindu..
    He was Siddhārtha Gautama, a royal, who abandoned that life to live an ascetic life before becoming a teacher and reaching enlightenment.
    The example he set was beyond class and cast, beyond religion in an organized way, and beyond obligations in family and social sense..
    Great post and the way I see it from my understanding. Meditation though is something she does that most Thais would not do. Tell me if I am wrong. My sample is small!! 5555


    The question still remains. Do Thais believe in reincarantion.
    "Man cannot discover New Oceans unless he has the courage to lose sight of the shore" 
      
       
       
         
       
      
     

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    ประเทศไทยเพื่อน Founding Member Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน jontymate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zablive View Post
    I don't think the "pee lawks" and reincarnation are incompatible concepts.

    The pee lawks "exist" because the correct procedures were not taken to send them on their way to Buddha for reincarnation, as I understand it.

    That is why, if you have a Thai "family" and you die, there can never be a simple die-funeral-cremate/burial process.

    EDIT:
    This is not dissimilar to the Catholic concept of " Purgatory" where your spirit goes to be judged and cleansed (purged) prior to entering Heaven.
    Non-Catholics apparently don't have the privilege of this purging and are judged "at the Gate".
    (or so I was told when they tried to convert me).
    Confused me there Baz. I do understand what you say though the comprehension is not there. Can you put it another way for me please. It is not a criticism it is just me to understand better.
    "Man cannot discover New Oceans unless he has the courage to lose sight of the shore" 
      
       
       
         
       
      
     

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    Uber Star Soi wanderer Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน Chob's Avatar
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    "The way I see it, Thai Buddhism is a mix of Buddhism, animism and some Hinduism..
    The house ghosts and lucky rituals have little to do with Buddhism, and really conflict with the basic Buddhist concepts..
    But they are integrated in the way Buddhism is taught in Thailand.."

    Pretty much I see it as Rak does , with the addition of a strong dose of Chinese ancestor worship and "lucky".
    The 'animism' part , like Jaow Tee Jaow Tong ( little houses for spirits of the land cleared , and the ancestors) is well documented as pre-dating Buddhism. Pictures of , and shrines to , forebears , more Chinese - Im told the Taoism of the Chinese is heavily biased toward simple ancestor worship.

    NE is definite that we 'come back' aka Buddhism and Reincarnation , but like Dao is reticent about any details.
    It seems we outsiders want to make uncomfortable questions about coming back as a ****roach ( or a cane toad 55) so I dont go into it further ... I guess I conclude that it seems just as illogical as thinking God is interested in every single one of us Christians , and she isnt impolite enough to question other religions , so nor should I.

    But clearly the pyramid nature of Thai society has an Indian / Hindu background and reflects in Thailands almost caste system style society , even though Buddha rejected all that hands down. The Indians were recorded as visiting and exchanging brides with the Thais more than 2000 years back , but the Thais emigrated from China , so there is bound to be quite a mix here.

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    Uber Star Soi wanderer Uber Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน Nubbins's Avatar
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    I asked J and she said that "real buddhism" is not focussed on coming back in an after life. She said that some monks will teach reincarnation but the good ones do not. She got a bit agitated talking about how some monks have their own take on things and gullible/superstitious people listen to them.

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    Uber Star Soi wanderer Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน Zablive's Avatar
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    @ Jonty

    Pee lawks are "un-reincarnated spirits" because their family did not or was unable to deal properly with their death?
    Maybe 555!

    We are getting many views on this - as probably as many as there are TGs to consult ...

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    Uber Star Soi wanderer Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน RakThai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontymate View Post
    Great post and the way I see it from my understanding. Meditation though is something she does that most Thais would not do. Tell me if I am wrong. My sample is small!! 5555


    The question still remains. Do Thais believe in reincarantion.
    In my opinion Thai Buddhism is very much "recipe" taught.. Do this, don't do that, say this when pray, etc..
    With very little background, and very much ritual orientated..
    Not much different from the Catholicism I have been brought up in.. praying before dinner.. done as fast as possible because the food was getting cold.. ritual without any true meaning..
    See the same in Thailand.. Meditation which is reduced to saying the mantra's, without too much insight to what these mantra's really are about..

    But, many Thai girls I know visit the Temple frequent and get positive energy out of it..
    And when have big problems or questions in their life will go to temple for days to clean their spirit before making a decision.. alone, not eating, meditating in whatever way... I think we still can learn from that..

    On the other side.. when talking with Thai girls about Buddhism, they do not understand Karma, not aware that there are more than one historic Buddha's, don't know about the Buddha nature in all of us..
    My take is that the "temple" does not want people to be to aware, same as the church has turned Christianity into a way of control..

    In Buddhism reincarnation is a fact, based on the principle that the spirit (life energy) has no beginning and therefor can not have an end.. (this far I can follow..).
    Therefor this spirit or life energy has to return after death in some form.. (logic considering the previous)..
    That this energy returns in the form of future life I can not follow, energy can take many form or shapes in my opinion..
    But in Buddhism it will return in a life form..
    This life form does not have to be human.. Buddhism recognizes 6 forms of life.. The gods, the semi-gods, humans, animals, the hungry or wandering spirits and the demons..
    (all poor translations from Sanskrit)..
    This matches or allows the integration with the animistic house spirits and negative wandering spirits and the rituals..

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    Uber Star Soi wanderer Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน Dupree's Avatar
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    Cafeteria Buddhists...
    I just girl in bar. Buy me one dink?....

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    Uber Star Soi wanderer Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน RakThai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dupree View Post
    Cafeteria Buddhists...
    Related to US Mc Donalds Christians? 555

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    Uber Star Soi wanderer Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน RakThai's Avatar
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    Less serious as the subject was intended..

    When my former Thai girlfriend was in Holland she had this instant fear or dislike for crows..
    They had something scary, mystic energy for her..

    Asked her why, but she did not know..
    So I made a joke and said "they were Thai ladies in a life before, maybe that is what scares you.."
    Se looked at my surprised, so I continued.. "yes, Thai ladies like to make suey too much, so next life they will be ugly.."
    "And try to be white too much, so next life they are all black..."
    "And Thai girls have no wings, but fly like butterfly.. So next life have wings, but cannot same same butterfly.."

    No she looked at me not knowing what to think or say..
    So I ask "Don't believe me? They forgot how to speak, but crows can still say 'ka...ka...ka...' "...

    She did not appreciate the joke, and it did not help her overcome her fear..
    Maybe someone here can see the humor?

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    Organic AI Quarky's Avatar
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    If she didn't laugh... she wasn't the girl for you...
    My only experience was in a pie making factory managing the gravy team


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    ประเทศไทยเพื่อน Founding Member Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน jontymate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rentthe View Post
    Theravada Buddhists believe that there are six (some combine two to make five) realms of existence that are subdivided into 31 different sub-realms in which we can die in and be reborn into.
    I find this interesting because I can not get this type of info from my wife. WTTB by the way. In fact she shies away.

    Can you explain how you have acquired this knowledge it would be helpful.
    "Man cannot discover New Oceans unless he has the courage to lose sight of the shore" 
      
       
       
         
       
      
     

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    Uber Star Soi wanderer Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน Bacon's Avatar
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    Reincarnation is a highly misunderstood subject. It doesn't refer to life after death at all. It's an old Hindu teaching that refers to the many traps along the spiritual path that can give birth to the ego again after it's been dropped, or has almost been abandoned. So the number and methods of reincarnations can vary from teaching to teaching as the systems differ.

    The aim is escape from the many circles of reincarnation and finally die for good. Speaking for the ego. Once the personality and all the thought structures around it, including the sense of self, breaks downs and completely falls apart, then the student is considered free of the karmic circle and stops being reincarnated. He's now looking at the world through clean eyes, un-hindered by the prism of thought and personality, which is nothing but prejudice. Even the "good" things in it.
    Last edited by Bacon; 13th March 2015 at 19:17.
    Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious.


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    ประเทศไทยเพื่อน Founding Member Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน Changone's Avatar
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    Like most things, Buddhism at the start was likely easily understood and followed.
    Then, as it became wrapped up in all the levels of following, telling and re-telling, the human element demanded the addition of "Mystery" to keep the masses paying.....(er I mean praying).

    I'm not the Dalai, (but IMO) at its simplest it is accepting (Not avoiding) all the realities and the hardships of life including decay illness and death for what they are, all the while while doing no harm to other beings. In its higher forms it is moving toward a state of mind which excludes all thought of anything related to daily life. Some monks have literally meditated to death like this.

    And where the hell was Biggles.....?....when you needed him last Saturday....?

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    ประเทศไทยเพื่อน Founding Member Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน jontymate's Avatar
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    Bacon you are going to make me research this now. Wow. The more I look, the more questions I have. For me one answer is clear. We're still animals. Perhaps an allegorical portrayal of Stalinism by George Orwell still fits for even the Dalai Lama?

    From his website....... Though I doubt he has written this.

    The Dalai Lamas have functioned as both the political and spiritual leaders of Tibet for 369 years since 1642. I have now voluntarily brought this to an end, proud and satisfied that we can pursue the kind of democratic system of government flourishing elsewhere in the world. In fact, as far back as 1969, I made clear that concerned people should decide whether the Dalai Lama’s reincarnations should continue in the future. However, in the absence of clear guidelines, should the concerned public express a strong wish for the Dalai Lamas to continue, there is an obvious risk of vested political interests misusing the reincarnation system to fulfil their own political agenda. Therefore, while I remain physically and mentally fit, it seems important to me that we draw up clear guidelines to recognise the next Dalai Lama, so that there is no room for doubt or deception. For these guidelines to be fully comprehensible, it is essential to understand the system of Tulku recognition and the basic concepts behind it. Therefore, I shall briefly explain them below.





    Past and future lives





    In order to accept reincarnation or the reality of Tulkus, we need to accept the existence of past and future lives. Sentient beings come to this present life from their previous lives and take rebirth again after death. This kind of continuous rebirth is accepted by all the ancient Indian spiritual traditions and schools of philosophy, except the Charvakas, who were a materialist movement. Some modern thinkers deny past and future lives on the premise that we cannot see them. Others do not draw such clear cut conclusions on this basis.





    Although many religious traditions accept rebirth, they differ in their views of what it is that is reborn, how it is reborn, and how it passes through the transitional period between two lives. Some religious traditions accept the prospect of future life, but reject the idea of past lives.

    



Generally, Buddhists believe that there is no beginning to birth and that once we achieve liberation from the cycle of existence by overcoming our karma and destructive emotions, we will not be reborn under the sway of these conditions. Therefore, Buddhists believe that there is an end to being reborn as a result of karma and destructive emotions, but most Buddhist philosophical schools do not accept that the mind-stream comes to an end. To reject past and future rebirth would contradict the Buddhist concept of the ground, path and result, which must be explained on the basis of the disciplined or undisciplined mind. If we accept this argument, logically, we would also have to accept that the world and its inhabitants come about without causes and conditions. Therefore, as long as you are a Buddhist, it is necessary to accept past and future rebirth.




    "Man cannot discover New Oceans unless he has the courage to lose sight of the shore" 
      
       
       
         
       
      
     

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