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Thread: Prospective Marriage Visa to Australia

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    Foundation Member Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน G4orce's Avatar
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    Prospective Marriage Visa to Australia

    Well there has been a bit of talk in other threads about PR Visas so I thought it needed a thread of it's own. The Prospective Marriage Visa (Subclass 300) is one of the PR Visa available for a TG. More info can be found Prospective Marriage Visa (Subclass 300).

    I had a few questions that I was unable to find answers to, so today i gave immigration a Call and had a few of them answered. The first question was could you have a multiple Entry TV while you are awaiting the approval of the PR. Today on the phone I was told you can apply for both at the same time. The TG just has to have a letter included (for the TV) stating the purpose of applying for the TV is so you can be with your Fiance while awaiting approval from your PR. I also asked if there was a specific period of time that someone can stay in Aust on a TV. She was unable to answer that question but did say that if someone was to continue entering the country on a TV, it would raise a flag to Immigration as to why they would continue returning as a Toutist. She then returned by saying if you had an application in process for a PR that it would be seen that the person is trying to become a resident and the TV visits are just until that has been approved. So I took that as the TV should not be cancelled (like in PPB Case) as you have a PV being processed.

    I was also told that if you apply for the PR outside of Aust, that you must be outside of Aust to have it approved. This is where I got a little confused. Does that mean to have the processing completed you would have to be in Thailand? Can the TG be in Aust, get a call when you are required to be back in Thailand? As the processing period is "up to 13 months" Who will know when it will be processed. So how will you know when you have to be out of Australia? If you are in Australia when it was due to be approved will this offect the outcome? Or are they saying the final approval will not be given until you have returned to Thailand? See my confusion?

    The application seems a little more detailed then the whole TV application and it costs a lot more. Things like Medicals, police checks and other documention are needed, but you do not have to prove that they will return at the end of the visa. That is what i found so hard with the TV.

    I know a few people have been through similar situations and a few are about to go this path. For my situation I am thinking Applying for this and a Multiple Entry TV is the best option, but have to put it to the boss first.

  2. #2
    ประเทศไทยเพื่อน Founding Member Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน Changone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G4orce View Post
    Well there has been a bit of talk in other threads about PR Visas so I thought it needed a thread of it's own. The Prospective Marriage Visa (Subclass 300) is one of the PR Visa available for a TG. More info can be found Prospective Marriage Visa (Subclass 300).

    I had a few questions that I was unable to find answers to, so today i gave immigration a Call and had a few of them answered. The first question was could you have a multiple Entry TV while you are awaiting the approval of the PR. Today on the phone I was told you can apply for both at the same time. The TG just has to have a letter included (for the TV) stating the purpose of applying for the TV is so you can be with your Fiance while awaiting approval from your PR. I also asked if there was a specific period of time that someone can stay in Aust on a TV. She was unable to answer that question but did say that if someone was to continue entering the country on a TV, it would raise a flag to Immigration as to why they would continue returning as a Toutist. She then returned by saying if you had an application in process for a PR that it would be seen that the person is trying to become a resident and the TV visits are just until that has been approved. So I took that as the TV should not be cancelled (like in PPB Case) as you have a PV being processed.

    I was also told that if you apply for the PR outside of Aust, that you must be outside of Aust to have it approved. This is where I got a little confused. Does that mean to have the processing completed you would have to be in Thailand? Can the TG be in Aust, get a call when you are required to be back in Thailand? As the processing period is "up to 13 months" Who will know when it will be processed. So how will you know when you have to be out of Australia? If you are in Australia when it was due to be approved will this offect the outcome? Or are they saying the final approval will not be given until you have returned to Thailand? See my confusion?

    The application seems a little more detailed then the whole TV application and it costs a lot more. Things like Medicals, police checks and other documention are needed, but you do not have to prove that they will return at the end of the visa. That is what i found so hard with the TV.

    I know a few people have been through similar situations and a few are about to go this path. For my situation I am thinking Applying for this and a Multiple Entry TV is the best option, but have to put it to the boss first.
    To be clear;
    A Permanent Resident visa (PR) is only issued on application when residing in Australia for two years, after being granted a Temporary Partner visa (TPV). You can only be granted one of these if you have applied for a (PMV) and married your TG, or you have been granted the visa as a defacto partner with 12 months proof of living together.

    This is a PMV question so
    First you apply for a Prospective Marriage Visa, lets call that the PMV.
    She needs to be outside Australia when she applies.
    Once the thing is granted she can come to Australia and you have up to nine months to marry her or she goes back.

    First problem:The PMV currently takes 10-13 months to process and you want to be with her while you are waiting.

    Solution?
    She applies for a TV tourist visa, citing reasons for coming to Australia which are to see the country, visit tourist spots and see friends.

    Second Problem
    Tourist visas are issued for periods of three six or twelve months.
    Immigration then says
    The period of stay and number of entries granted will depend on the purpose of the visit and your personal circumstances.
    The TV is not for long enough.

    Solution?
    Apply for twelve months giving reasons why you need a longer stay for tourist purposes.

    Third problem
    Immigration gives you only three months and you asked for more.

    Solution?
    You apply for an extension of the stay while she is IN Australia giving reasons why you need more time.

    Fourth problem
    Her first TV is stamped "No further stay".

    Solution?
    You send her back after three months. She stays for a month or two and if the PMV is still too far off, she applies for another TV.

    By this time, you should be at the 8 month stage waiting for your PMV.
    You will at least have spent either three or six months together in Australia.
    The fact is she HAS to be back in Thailand for the PMV approval.
    That still means worst case scenario another 2-5 month seperation.

    Questions
    Has anyone ever had their TG granted a TV for more than three months?
    (i.e. when you originally applied they said she could remain here continuously for more than three months?, not an extension, No Further Stay or not).

    I just don't get the benefit of the whole multi entry thing if you can't be in Australia for more than three months anyway. Is it an automatic clock reset every time you fly in and out?

    How does the multi entry option stack up (cost wise) against the TV 1 and 2 scenario?

    Keeping it Happy
    And where the hell was Biggles.....?....when you needed him last Saturday....?

  3. #3
    ประเทศไทยเพื่อน Founding Member Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน PatongBeachBoy's Avatar
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    Well I was told that they will only give a 3 month TV after the application for the PMV or DV (Defacto Visa) was submitted...
    I had a 6 month TV approved but was required to submit Xrays and a police check and as we were booked to leave within a few days the Immigration Officer suggested the 12 month Multi entry.....
    The cost was exactly the same as a 3 month or 6,12 month...
    I was also told that you have to be careful with your applications as to not manipulate the visa... i.e. applying for a TV before you place your PMV will void the PMV... a TV can be applied for after the PMV but not before, also stating your GF is a Tourist while enquiring about PMV is a big one that sets off alarm bells especially if you apply for another TV... I actually stated in my TV application that Thip wanted to come to Oz to strengthen our relationship not to be a Tourist!....

    In this day and age you will be very lucky to get a TV out Thailand without the 'No Further Stay', as Thailand is classed as a high risk country in Immigrations eyes, this means that all PMV's an DV's need to be applied for in BKK or in fact another country besides Australia...
    Regarding your question G4 about having to be in BKK to have the visa processed, an Interview is required with your partner and you will be notified regarding when this will be... There is a form 956 that allows you to receive any correspondence regarding your partners visa, so If Noy was in Oz at the time they would notify her via you....
    Also the visa application fee which is now $1995.AUD can be paid within Oz, I'm yet to find out at what stage of the process this is required but I presume it has to be done before they will start to process the application...

  4. #4
    Foundation Member Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน Sydney's Avatar
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    Good research you have done G4 on PR and TV,, It sound like you have finally answered the most important question of applying for a multi TV at the same time of applying for a PR and this certainly sounds like the way to go.

    You confusion about the final processing is understandable and i mentioned this part on another thread. Assuming it does take as long as 13 months however i woulnd;t be to worried about being back in Thailand when she needs to be there for her interview and final process as changone just suggested it would be a small amount of time apart in the scheme of things. The only risk i can see is maybe at the tail end of her multi prehaps on here last visit here she may get the call up while she is here in Aus....Expensive but a quick flight back ( as your interview booking would be a least 2 weeks of warning ) would slove this problem. Then once she has done the interview she would stay in Thailand until the process is all completed as the iinterview is usally the very last stage of the process.

    I am fairly up to date with alll the forms and other guff that is needed and i am about to go through it all again in the next couple of months ( as Condo has mentioned this stage is just a repeat of what you are about to do) for JK's next stage of her visa so if you need any help or examples of what i did let me know.

    By the way congrats on the proposal to Noy...did she say YES....ohhh what have i jumped the gun?....5555555
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    Foundation Member Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน G4orce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sydney View Post
    By the way congrats on the proposal to Noy...did she say YES....ohhh what have i jumped the gun?....5555555
    5555, not yet but that is a possible that in the close future that could be what is happening. Like I have said i am trying to work out when to go from here. Right now i see myself being with this girl for the rest of my life, but who knows how i will feel in 12 months time....

    Thanks for the help and the offer. I may justy have to take you up on that depaending on where I go next. There is still a possibility we will just go another Tv to speand another 3 months together...

  6. #6
    flynn
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    My 2 cents!

    My partner and I spent about 2 years going abck and forth between Thailand and Perth, she entering Au on a tourist visa always only with a 3 month duration and a no further stay clause even though we repeatedly requested more time. I even went to immigration in Perth to try and work out why they were only giving us a 3 month visa when the visa is available for 6 and 12 months and only got the usual speil about Thailand being a high risk country for over stayers. I even said i dont want all of Thailand here just my partner and shes only one girl, educated with a good job in BKK and not a risk to over stay but they would not budge and just kept issuing the 3 month tourist visa. Finally on her third or fourth tourist visa they said they would not issue her any more tourist visas and that of course just pissed me off no end, free country my arse! We were planning on applying for partner visa anyway and were just waiting for the relationship to mature and pass the 12 month requirement for applying for a partner visa.

    Applied for her visa and she is now here on First Stage Partner visa and has been in country for about 12 months and we are on track for second stage and PR in the future if she behaves :-)

    Putthithada has had very little trouble adjusting to life in Au, she loves the cold and loves the summer and has learnt to cook Thai food as it wasnt available on the street here and I think thats the only problem she has really had being from Udon Thani she likes her food spicy!

    She and I have got a little flack from her family about not being married as I am sure you all know you have to get married as its Thai culture my response has always been well its Australian Culture now not get married in the first 10 minutes of a relationship and if she or her family cant accept that then my view is that her feelings for me cant be that strong and she is free to return to BKK whenever she likes. We have seen many of her friends marry falang in Thailand then they move to the husbands country and she is back in Thailand within 3 months wanting a divorce. We have only so many days on this earth and everyone is precious and I refuse to waste any more getting married and divorced again if it doesnt work out :-)

    Personally I think the Prosective Marriage Visa is the wrong way to go unless you have been living with your TG in Thailand for a few years and have an established solid relationship. The Partner Visa is a much better option if you find out she is not the right girl you can send her home and not end up with someone you or the Austrlaian Government have to support on unemployment or single parent pension. I know I am perhaps sounding a bit hard but life is hard and you have to look at the future, things are not always going to be roses and chocolates, you have to be sure your realtionship can survive the hard times and the good times and also make sure its got some legs on it and not just a a brief romance.

    Flynn
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    Uber Star Soi wanderer Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน justcruzing1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flynn View Post
    My 2 cents!

    My partner and I spent about 2 years going abck and forth between Thailand and Perth, she entering Au on a tourist visa always only with a 3 month duration and a no further stay clause even though we repeatedly requested more time. I even went to immigration in Perth to try and work out why they were only giving us a 3 month visa when the visa is available for 6 and 12 months and only got the usual speil about Thailand being a high risk country for over stayers. I even said i dont want all of Thailand here just my partner and shes only one girl, educated with a good job in BKK and not a risk to over stay but they would not budge and just kept issuing the 3 month tourist visa. Finally on her third or fourth tourist visa they said they would not issue her any more tourist visas and that of course just pissed me off no end, free country my arse! We were planning on applying for partner visa anyway and were just waiting for the relationship to mature and pass the 12 month requirement for applying for a partner visa.

    Applied for her visa and she is now here on First Stage Partner visa and has been in country for about 12 months and we are on track for second stage and PR in the future if she behaves :-)

    Putthithada has had very little trouble adjusting to life in Au, she loves the cold and loves the summer and has learnt to cook Thai food as it wasnt available on the street here and I think thats the only problem she has really had being from Udon Thani she likes her food spicy!

    She and I have got a little flack from her family about not being married as I am sure you all know you have to get married as its Thai culture my response has always been well its Australian Culture now not get married in the first 10 minutes of a relationship and if she or her family cant accept that then my view is that her feelings for me cant be that strong and she is free to return to BKK whenever she likes. We have seen many of her friends marry falang in Thailand then they move to the husbands country and she is back in Thailand within 3 months wanting a divorce. We have only so many days on this earth and everyone is precious and I refuse to waste any more getting married and divorced again if it doesnt work out :-)

    Personally I think the Prosective Marriage Visa is the wrong way to go unless you have been living with your TG in Thailand for a few years and have an established solid relationship. The Partner Visa is a much better option if you find out she is not the right girl you can send her home and not end up with someone you or the Austrlaian Government have to support on unemployment or single parent pension. I know I am perhaps sounding a bit hard but life is hard and you have to look at the future, things are not always going to be roses and chocolates, you have to be sure your realtionship can survive the hard times and the good times and also make sure its got some legs on it and not just a a brief romance.

    Flynn
    Welcome to the board Flynn.

    Interesting how the gov can refuse any more TV's. glad you managed a PV.

    I wish you both an easy, and smooth transition to PR.

    I look forward to your contribution to this forum, one that has no judgements, just helpfull advice.

    I am sure you and your TG will have a lot of experiences to add.

    Cheers,
    JC1

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    ประเทศไทยเพื่อน Founding Member Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน PatongBeachBoy's Avatar
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    These are very valid points Flynn especially about the relationship having legs.... I understand the Governments view on the PMV as it is a good easy way of showing a genuine relationship, but for me personally I will aim for the Partner visa as I want a choice of when and where I get married.
    It is hard to be in love with your TG and apply for the PV as you need to spend a lot of time together as well as a lot of time apart due to the limit on the amount of TV's issued (like yours), which forces the PMV to the forefront as the visa of choice...
    I was actually told tonight that I am taking the wrong avenue, that I should actually be applying via the Thailand embassy in Melbourne instead of the Australian Immigration Department... I'm not sure on this information, it just doesn't sound credible in my mind as it is an Australian immigration matter... I will check it out!

    What is Putthithada's nickname Flynn?

  9. #9
    ประเทศไทยเพื่อน Founding Member Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน PatongBeachBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justcruzing1 View Post
    Welcome to the board Flynn.

    Interesting how the gov can refuse any more TV's. glad you managed a PV.

    I wish you both an easy, and smooth transition to PR.

    I look forward to your contribution to this forum, one that has no judgements, just helpfull advice.

    I am sure you and your TG will have a lot of experiences to add.

    Cheers,
    JC1
    Its called Visa hoping JC... and when a TV is only $110 compared to a PR being $2000 its not a bad option to go for the TV, especially if you can get a 12mth multi for $110!

  10. #10
    The artist formally known as Wabbits Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน wabbits's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flynn View Post
    My 2 cents!

    My partner and I spent about 2 years going abck and forth between Thailand and Perth, she entering Au on a tourist visa always only with a 3 month duration and a no further stay clause even though we repeatedly requested more time. I even went to immigration in Perth to try and work out why they were only giving us a 3 month visa when the visa is available for 6 and 12 months and only got the usual speil about Thailand being a high risk country for over stayers. I even said i dont want all of Thailand here just my partner and shes only one girl, educated with a good job in BKK and not a risk to over stay but they would not budge and just kept issuing the 3 month tourist visa. Finally on her third or fourth tourist visa they said they would not issue her any more tourist visas and that of course just pissed me off no end, free country my arse! We were planning on applying for partner visa anyway and were just waiting for the relationship to mature and pass the 12 month requirement for applying for a partner visa.

    Applied for her visa and she is now here on First Stage Partner visa and has been in country for about 12 months and we are on track for second stage and PR in the future if she behaves :-)

    Putthithada has had very little trouble adjusting to life in Au, she loves the cold and loves the summer and has learnt to cook Thai food as it wasnt available on the street here and I think thats the only problem she has really had being from Udon Thani she likes her food spicy!

    She and I have got a little flack from her family about not being married as I am sure you all know you have to get married as its Thai culture my response has always been well its Australian Culture now not get married in the first 10 minutes of a relationship and if she or her family cant accept that then my view is that her feelings for me cant be that strong and she is free to return to BKK whenever she likes. We have seen many of her friends marry falang in Thailand then they move to the husbands country and she is back in Thailand within 3 months wanting a divorce. We have only so many days on this earth and everyone is precious and I refuse to waste any more getting married and divorced again if it doesnt work out :-)

    Personally I think the Prosective Marriage Visa is the wrong way to go unless you have been living with your TG in Thailand for a few years and have an established solid relationship. The Partner Visa is a much better option if you find out she is not the right girl you can send her home and not end up with someone you or the Austrlaian Government have to support on unemployment or single parent pension. I know I am perhaps sounding a bit hard but life is hard and you have to look at the future, things are not always going to be roses and chocolates, you have to be sure your realtionship can survive the hard times and the good times and also make sure its got some legs on it and not just a a brief romance.

    Flynn
    Make a lot of sense to me.
    The system is not set up to allow us to form a long term relationship it drives us to make decisions that we might otherwise delay.
    This can do to things make us rush or go the other way.

    I did not know that after so many TV's they might denie more........The unfeeling mechine.
    You sound like you have your head screwed on Flynn i think your input will be well recieved.
    .

  11. #11
    flynn
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    We applied for the Partner visa via the Au Embassy in BKK and didnt really have any trouble but I was quite thorough with the documentation and read all the info on the Department of Immigration & Citizenship more than once to make sure I understood all the documentation requirements. We did all the medicals here in Perth when she was over on a tourist visa and also got her documents translated and notorised here as well so we had everything ready when we went back to BKK.

    I knew they were going to ask her a lot of questions about my family at the interview so I gave her a few lessons on our family tree and how to pronounce and remember all my family member names. Everything went smmootly and we had no real problems but we saw a lot of people who were having problems becasue they didnt read all the documentation or didnt understand it so they were getting frustrated at having to go away and come back with the right documents. When you are in BKK and you need something else from Au it can be very upsetting!



    Quote Originally Posted by PatongBeachBoy View Post
    These are very valid points Flynn especially about the relationship having legs.... I understand the Governments view on the PMV as it is a good easy way of showing a genuine relationship, but for me personally I will aim for the Partner visa as I want a choice of when and where I get married.
    It is hard to be in love with your TG and apply for the PV as you need to spend a lot of time together as well as a lot of time apart due to the limit on the amount of TV's issued (like yours), which forces the PMV to the forefront as the visa of choice...
    I was actually told tonight that I am taking the wrong avenue, that I should actually be applying via the Thailand embassy in Melbourne instead of the Australian Immigration Department... I'm not sure on this information, it just doesn't sound credible in my mind as it is an Australian immigration matter... I will check it out!

    What is Putthithada's nickname Flynn?

  12. #12
    ประเทศไทยเพื่อน Founding Member Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน Changone's Avatar
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    The more I read about the different ways of getting a PV the more I see there is just no easy, cheap, convenient way of getting one.

    Your approach is interesting and raises many questions for me, as well as maybe anyone interested in following it

    How much did it cost to get all the medicals and get the thai docs translated here in Australia? (No medicare for her etc, I always found that to be a bind while on a TV).
    When you applied for the temporary PV in BKK how long did you have to wait for the approval? (Was it as bad as the 12-13 months they say it is now)
    Were you able to stay in BKK with Putthithada?
    What sort of thing did you give them as evidence of your 12 months living together? Did the 12 months include the time spent on the consecutive TV's?

    I bet it feels good to be through it all. Roll on the two years and the permanent PV.
    And where the hell was Biggles.....?....when you needed him last Saturday....?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Changone View Post
    What sort of thing did you give them as evidence of your 12 months living together? Did the 12 months include the time spent on the consecutive TV's?
    Just thinking about this requirement and its implications. Does this then also mean in Australia that your partner would be viewed legally as a defacto at this point, and therefore potentially entitled to half your assets (and debts) if you didn't have a pre-nup?
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    ประเทศไทยเพื่อน Founding Member Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน Changone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by contrarian View Post
    Just thinking about this requirement and its implications. Does this then also mean in Australia that your partner would be viewed legally as a defacto at this point, and therefore potentially entitled to half your assets (and debts) if you didn't have a pre-nup?
    Not quite, but if you have been together for TWO YEARS That's a big [SIZE="6"]"YES"[/SIZE] in WA at least.
    And where the hell was Biggles.....?....when you needed him last Saturday....?

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    Foundation Member Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน G4orce's Avatar
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    What exactly do you have to show in the way of evidence of you going to get married for the PMV? I think I saw that you had to be booked in somewhere with a date given... Can't you just sign the paperwork and then "Hey Presto" your Married? If Me and Noy were to get married it would be a traditional wedding in Issan (once Sin Sot is saved) and the sign the paper wedding in Aust for the Visa....

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    ประเทศไทยเพื่อน Founding Member Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน PatongBeachBoy's Avatar
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    I too have heard that you need to show a booking with a celebrant..... makes it a bit hard when they say it could take up to 12mths to process the application!

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    Foundation Member Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน Sydney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PatongBeachBoy View Post
    I too have heard that you need to show a booking with a celebrant..... makes it a bit hard when they say it could take up to 12mths to process the application!
    Yes you do need a booking with a celebrant and the paper work from him too....just make a date any date will do ....i made a date roughy 6 months after i thought JK would be here ...paid teh $150 deposit...got the paper work from him....then after the visa was approved rang him up and cancelled it......he will take a booking 2 years in advance no problems,,,,just another formality you have to do
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    Foundation Member Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน G4orce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sydney View Post
    Yes you do need a booking with a celebrant and the paper work from him too....just make a date any date will do ....i made a date roughy 6 months after i thought JK would be here ...paid teh $150 deposit...got the paper work from him....then after the visa was approved rang him up and cancelled it......he will take a booking 2 years in advance no problems,,,,just another formality you have to do
    So they will not go and check up on it in the long run once you have married? I thought that something like this would be a way around it but also thought there was something else that could be the way to go. I guess that is just a little more you have to do in this wonderful game called Love 5555

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    Foundation Member Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน Sydney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G4orce View Post
    So they will not go and check up on it in the long run once you have married?
    Thats the key right there...provided you do marry and move to the next stage it doesn't really matter which celebrant you ended up using......i can't see anything wrong with changing your plans on where or how or even when you marry....providing you do marry in the 9 months timeframe.....i doubt they would check your orignal celebrant paperwork against your final NOIM form.....and even if they did.......it just so happens that i have now decided on a different wedding event, location and even date..

    Maybe Condo or someone else could expand on the finer details of the NOIM from regarding the date, celebrant and location

    Either way its a big ask to concrete in something like that when you can't even be sure about how long your partner visa may take to approve over a 13 month period

    Look at it another way.....you book in a celebrant for 18 months away allowing for 13 months for the visa and 6 months for her to come here and get organized for the wedding...........then the visa is approved faster say at 7 months.....she gets here 1 month after that so thats now 8 months...you now have to be married within 9 months or she has to leave so thats 17 months.....ohhh but the wedding was booked for 18 months......DOH
    Last edited by Sydney; 5th August 2011 at 20:16.
    The only thing that will stop you from fulfilling your dreams is you.

  20. #20
    ประเทศไทยเพื่อน Founding Member Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน PatongBeachBoy's Avatar
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    Sydney's right, It wont matter if you get married on the 19th or the 24th just as long as its within the 9mth time frame.... the letter from the celebrant isn't necessary, it just adds weight to your application!

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