Is owning a bar in Thailand today a ticket to jail in farangland tomorrow?

[Minder]

Talking a few weeks ago with another long term visitor to LOS and it keeps going around in my head - in summary the question asked was - are farangs who run bars in Thailand likely to be branded as "criminals" in their own country one day?

Given the trend in western countries to prosecute persons for more and more "crimes" committed overseas - especially crimes relating to the exploitation of women and/or children - I tend to agree things are heading that way - sooner rather than later.

Imagine yourself as a bar owner standing in a farang court over your role as "pimp" and trafficker of "impoverished and desperate women" (their words) to "sex tourists"?

Is it just a matter of time before being an Asian bar owner means never returning to your home country?

Thoughts?

[wabbits]

[SIZE=3]Could it be seen as a crime if you have a bar where customers come and take a staff member away from time to time.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]The customer gives a bar fine to compensate for the loss of staff.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Any transaction from there would be between the customer and the girl I would have thought???[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Different if you’re had short time rooms as that is illegal in LOS[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Different if you had under age girls those that operate in that market should be left in jail to rot IMHO.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3][/SIZE]

[ozzyzak]

I don't know much about what happens. I know what is told to me, but I don't know if it's accurate or just sensationalism. That said, yes, I think if you are a westerner and you own a bar like that, you might as well not go back home. I don't see any way else it could operate. If you were somehow found out, you would be responsible for being a pimp and possibly a trafficker. I'm almost 100 percent sure that coming back to the US after doing something like that would probably lead to your arrest. I don't even know about one day, I bet it could happen now.

[Minder]

[SIZE=3]Could it be seen as a crime if you have a bar where customers come and take a staff member away from time to time.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]The customer gives a bar fine to compensate for the loss of staff.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Any transaction from there would be between the customer and the girl I would have thought???[/SIZE]
.....

Mr Wabbits we note that there is a sign in Thai script on the front of your bar seeking staff and that it lists two wages for errr...."hostesses".....and the higher wage is paid to those who "go with" customers......did you really think this court will believe that you did not know that sex-for-money was part of this arrangement when it was part of the criteria under which you employed your staff? Bailiff, take him away

[Changone]

I don't think anyone will ever make bar ownership a crime, but guilt by association could hurt your chances of high office, or employment in some quarters.
You will get in more strife if someone acts on a complaint against you in a foreign country.

A guy who owned a bar in the Phils was taken down by the local police for "Human trafficking" recently so it can happen.

Aussie bar owner Terrence Smith charged for human trafficking in Philippines - What's On Ningbo

A good place to start might be the reasons why someone finds themselves owning a bar in Thailand in the first place.
If you talk to some of the old timers about bar ownership you find that in the old days a lot had very shady pasts and returning home was not usually an option and might by itself lead to arrest on old charges. Nowadays it is not so obvious and perhaps people find it easier to blend in.
Thats not to say everyone who owns a thai bar is on the run though.

Watched yet another TV doco last week where an aussie ex cop took it upon himself to track down the chinese manager of a sydney brothel from 15 years ago in an effort to have civil charges brought against him in relation to an underage prostitute who had been trafficked there, and had returned to Thailand and later fallen on hard times financially. Three people had originally been jailed over the trafficking charges, but now years later they were pursuing the manager.

So just like OJ you may beat the criminal rap only to be taken down in a civil suit.

[wabbits]

Mr Wabbits we note that there is a sign in Thai script on the front of your bar seeking staff and that it lists two wages for errr...."hostesses".....and the higher wage is paid to those who "go with" customers......did you really think this court will believe that you did not know that sex-for-money was part of this arrangement when it was part of the criteria under which you employed your staff? Bailiff, take him away

With a sign out the front listing emploment options in Thai.....I as a Farang owner would be more worried about MIB helping me commit some sort of self harm because they had not told me the Tea money had gone up.....

Still if not found guilty of any crime or even charged in a foriegn country not sure where the prosicution would come from??

TBH i would never have a bar that ran girls its not me. When i had that initial thought about owning a bar as most do...It was never that sort more a beach hut, small round style thatched variety. Run by 2 girls not for sale.

Not on moral grounds as i like sitting in beer bars..Just not me.

[wabbits]

I don't think anyone will ever make bar ownership a crime, but guilt by association could hurt your chances of high office, or employment in some quarters.
You will get in more strife if someone acts on a complaint against you in a foreign country.

A guy who owned a bar in the Phils was taken down by the local police for "Human trafficking" recently so it can happen.

Aussie bar owner Terrence Smith charged for human trafficking in Philippines - What's On Ningbo

A good place to start might be the reasons why someone finds themselves owning a bar in Thailand in the first place.
If you talk to some of the old timers about bar ownership you find that in the old days a lot had very shady pasts and returning home was not usually an option and might by itself lead to arrest on old charges. Nowadays it is not so obvious and perhaps people find it easier to blend in.
Thats not to say everyone who owns a thai bar is on the run though.

Watched yet another TV doco last week where an aussie ex cop took it upon himself to track down the chinese manager of a sydney brothel from 15 years ago in an effort to have civil charges brought against him in relation to an underage prostitute who had been trafficked there, and had returned to Thailand and later fallen on hard times financially. Three people had originally been jailed over the trafficking charges, but now years later they were pursuing the manager.

So just like OJ you may beat the criminal rap only to be taken down in a civil suit.

Running a bar in LOS or anywhere where it runs girls and against the law in that country will only ever be viable while the MIB are happy (Enough money for tea)
Far to open for extortion...Look at Dennis from Kamala (PI BM) He had to shut up his Internet cafe because of repeated MIB visits. 30,000bt or you are charged with child porn offences planted on your public access computers or you can jump from your 3rd story balcony...Krup
A totally legit business unrelated to anything sex industry!!

[jontymate]

If owned a bar with girls available it would not be any Aussie authority I would be scared of, it would be the sweet little innocent girl that sleeps next to me.

[G4orce]

Very Interesting thoughts, I never thought of this myself but makes a lot of sence. How would the Aussie Government/law inforcment find out you owned a bar that did this? As a Farang you could not own the bar but could lease it, If you were to put it in your GF/Wife name would she then have issues getting into Australia and be treated as we would by out Law?

[contrarian]

Very Interesting thoughts, I never thought of this myself but makes a lot of sence. How would the Aussie Government/law inforcment find out you owned a bar that did this? As a Farang you could not own the bar but could lease it, If you were to put it in your GF/Wife name would she then have issues getting into Australia and be treated as we would by out Law?

Very very easily. Big brother is watching! And all you need is a Today Tonight expose, or nowadays a youtube video to go viral, and you are front page news!

[Rivo]

And you wont be able to hide in your own bar G4orce, especially when you are 18 inches taller than everyone else in the bar 555

[Minder]

I don't know much about what happens. I know what is told to me, but I don't know if it's accurate or just sensationalism. That said, yes, I think if you are a westerner and you own a bar like that, you might as well not go back home. I don't see any way else it could operate. If you were somehow found out, you would be responsible for being a pimp and possibly a trafficker. I'm almost 100 percent sure that coming back to the US after doing something like that would probably lead to your arrest. I don't even know about one day, I bet it could happen now.

I like this post because it is an insight into how people with less exposure to what we see is "normal" in Thailand see those who indulge in it.

And it is these sorts of people who are making the laws you may one day come back to face - old age, poverty or failing health, any or all could be the reasons for your return to farangland and NONE will protect you from prosecution (persecution?).

And for goodness sake - let's call a spade a spade - most beer bars in Thailand provide prostitution services - period - and if you are involved in one as an owner/operator/financier then the moral majority in farangland (with the help of the "torches and pitchforks" media) will have no trouble seeing you as someone living off the earning of prostitutes....aka a criminal.

Enjoy.

[wabbits]

I like this post because it is an insight into how people with less exposure to what we see is "normal" in Thailand see those who indulge in it.

And it is these sorts of people who are making the laws you may one day come back to face - old age, poverty or failing health, any or all could be the reasons for your return to farangland and NONE will protect you from prosection (persecution?).

And for goodness sake - let's call a spade a spade - most beer bars in Thailand provide prostitution services - period - and if you are involved in one as an owner/operator/financier then the moral majority in farangland (with the help of the "torches and pitchforks" media) will have no trouble seeing you as someone living off the earning of prostitutes....aka a criminal.

Mrs W is very good at sniffing out the ones that dont....AKA our local in BKK
Also the one bar i spent the most time in, in Patong was No BG's.....(Before Mrs W) mostly for the peace and quiet.5555
But i do agree most bars in TOURIST Thailand are in some way involved in the supply of girls.

[Minder]

Mrs W is very good at sniffing out the ones that don’t....AKA our local in BKK
Also the one bar i spent the most time in, in Patong was No BG's.....(Before Mrs W) mostly for the peace and quiet.5555
But i do agree most bars in TOURIST Thailand are in some way involved in the supply of girls.

Yeah, we all know that just saying you go to Thailand regularly will get you "that look" from some quarters - I can imagine saying I own a bar there would be a real double take....

The original conversation that prompted this thread was about a trend in Australian society to blame ourselves for everything that is wrong in the world - and how far this trend toward total accountability would continue.

Climate change - our fault
The state of the indigenous people - our fault
Boat people - our fault

Disciplining your own child can now get you into serious trouble with the authorities in Oz, so it is not hard to imagine a near future where even travelling overseas to visit the aforementioned bars is information best kept to yourself.

Enjoy.

[ozzyzak]

Yeah, we all know that just saying you go to Thailand regularly will get you "that look" from some quarters - I can imagine saying I own a bar there would be a real double take....

The original conversation that prompted this thread was about a trend in Australian society to blame ourselves for everything that is wrong in the world - and how far this trend toward total accountability would continue.

Climate change - our fault
The state of the indigenous people - our fault
Boat people - our fault

Disciplining your own child can now get you into serious trouble with the authorities in Oz, so it is not hard to imagine a near future where even travelling overseas to visit the aforementioned bars is information best kept to yourself.

Enjoy.

Yeah, I'm going through that now, to an extent. Now that I'm making my third trip out since march of 2010, people are starting to wonder why I go so much. Frankly, I don't care much for their musings. While I may partake in some activity in which they would not approve, I'm not a monger by any stretch of the imagination, just ask Gazmac!

In regards to you guys blaming everything on yourselves, it might not be apparent, but the USA is quite good at that as well.

That said, I think I will be keeping future trips to myself.

[wabbits]

Yeah, we all know that just saying you go to Thailand regularly will get you "that look" from some quarters - I can imagine saying I own a bar there would be a real double take....

The original conversation that prompted this thread was about a trend in Australian society to blame ourselves for everything that is wrong in the world - and how far this trend toward total accountability would continue.

Climate change - our fault
The state of the indigenous people - our fault
Boat people - our fault

Disciplining your own child can now get you into serious trouble with the authorities in Oz, so it is not hard to imagine a near future where even travelling overseas to visit the aforementioned bars is information best kept to yourself.

Enjoy.

Like all TG's only have one job....

A government that wants to make me self responsible through regulation...Even though that same government is happy to side step its own self responsibility.
Bah this government will regulate it self up its own arssse one day.:take that mate:

[Jaffaman]

Bah, humbug!
Owning a bar here isn't a black mark, just pay the MIB and keep out of all illegal stuff.
It is very easy to look for shortcuts to pay the bills, just don't do it... that's what catches people out.
I do agree, a lot of bad guys and girls in the industry... but it's not the majority at all.

[Minder]

Bah, humbug!
Owning a bar here isn't a black mark, just pay the MIB and keep out of all illegal stuff.
It is very easy to look for shortcuts to pay the bills, just don't do it... that's what catches people out.
I do agree, a lot of bad guys and girls in the industry... but it's not the majority at all.

Good to have your input J man. I am reading about a million dollars’ worth of good advice for prospective Thailand business ventures in what you say, "Shortcuts" et al.

No offence intended by the post - just the fall out of the drunken ramblings of a couple of degenerates wondering about the direction of Oz society and the authorities constant search for "soft" targets with large scale media appeal.

I also tend to agree about the bad guys not being the bar owner majority - it seems the system has a way of weeding them out - I have met a couple in the past decade or so but they don't seem to last more than a year or two before they vanish in a cloud of bad debts.

Enjoy.

[wabbits]

^^^^Jaffa not tell you about his connections to the underworld.5555555555
If you wake up with a buffalo head in your bed...as horses are hard to come by, dont blame me.555555

[Minder]

^^^^Jaffa not tell you about his connections to the underworld.5555555555
If you wake up with a buffalo head in your bed...as horses are hard to come by, dont blame me.555555

Tell him to leave a card on it so I know who that one is from .....

P.s Who sleeps?