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Thread: Preah Vihear

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    The artist formally known as Wabbits Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน wabbits's Avatar
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    Preah Vihear

    Today is the day when they rule on the temple dispute.
    This could have a profound effect on my family or it could be nothing...I am voting for the latter we need no crap like this.
    http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/11/10/uk-thailand-cambodia-temple-idUKBRE9A905O20131110
    .

  2. #2
    Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน Hatari's Avatar
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    4pm today; between this ruling and the anti-amnesty protests, 11 November could be quite a day in local history


    Classes at over 40 schools in Si Sa Ket called off for ICJ ruling
    CLASSES AT more than 40 schools on the Si Sa Ket side of the Preah Vihear Temple have been cancelled for two days so that students can stay with their families as the world court delivers its ruling on the territorial dispute with Cambodia today.
    Principals, teachers and staff have been instructed to be at work today and tomorrow. At night, monitors are on watch for break-ins. Schoolchildren need to be close to their families so that they can evacuate their homes if border fighting and artillery shelling break out.

    In Bangkok, concrete barricades have sprung up in front of and around the Cambodian Embassy on Pracha-Uthit Road in Wang Thonglang district, partially blocking traffic lanes and causing congestion even on the weekend. Anti-riot police are standing guard at the main gate and the large space in the back has been turned into a rest area for off-shift police. Heavy traffic jams are expected today before and during the ruling, which will be read out at 4pm Bangkok time.

    ___________________________

    and then there's this crowd hell-bent on conflict if ICJ ruling doesn't go their way

    Nationalist group takes stand against ICJ and its ruling on Preah Vihear
    Nationalist groups said yesterday they will take a stand against the International Court of Justice (ICJ) verdict on Preah Vihear Temple, as they do not trust the Pheu Thai government - which they say is ready to cede territory to Cambodia.
    "We are taking action both domestically and internationally," he said. "Just like the Free Thai Movement, which took dual action against the government during World War II. We will use all means to force the government to withdraw from the ICJ."
    "This verdict will not be good for people of both countries as it could spark fur?ther conflicts and even war," he [Chaiwat Sinsuwong, leader of Thai Patriotic Network] said.

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    Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน Hatari's Avatar
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    Police brace for protester clashes
    Security beefed up as groups escalate rallies

    Monday 11 Nov 2013
    A confrontation between the government and protest groups is expected to reach a new level of intensity today when several unpredictable conditions will occur simultaneously.
    Police have voiced concern that all groups are gearing up to escalate their protests and stir up public disorder. The Centre for the Administration of Peace and Order (Capo) said security preparations have been heightened to handle the protest situation.
    At issue today are the blanket amnesty bill and the International Court of Justice's ruling over the Preah Vihear dispute.
    Capo's spokesman Pol Maj Gen Piya Uthayo said violence is anticipated to break out in several areas. National police chief Adul Saengsingkaew has ordered a security step-up to prevent incidents.

  4. #4
    The artist formally known as Wabbits Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน wabbits's Avatar
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    Bangkok — Tensions are high in Thailand Monday with several unpredictable events set to occur simultaneously: the UN verdict on the Preah Vihear border dispute with Cambodia, the Senate handling of the amnesty bill, and escalating Bangkok protests from groups on both sides of the political spectrum.
    The United Nation’s highest court is set to deliver its verdict on the long-standing border dispute between Thailand and Cambodia around the ancient Khmer Preah Vihear temple.
    Troops from both nations have dug trenches and bunkers near the temple, and fighting in the area in 2011 killed 18 people and displaced thousands.
    Military officials from both sides have said in recent days they expect no problems after the verdict, and Thai PM Yingluck Shinawatra and Cambodian PM Hun Sen have agreed both nations must abide by the International Court of Justice (ICJ) ruling and maintain peace and stability along the border, regardless of which way the ruling goes, according to reports.
    The main fear is that certain groups may try to politicize the issue with tensions already high in Thailand with the protests over the amnesty bill.
    The nationalist group the Thai Patriotic Network has already announced it will reject any judgement from the ICJ.
    Also on Monday, the Thai Senate is to hold its first reading of the amnesty bill, and is expected to reject it in an attempt to defuse tensions.
    The government has already taken several steps to try and calm down the protesters, but it appears to have had little effect.
    The Pheu Thai government announced it will leave the amnesty bill in the hands of the Senate, and will not resurrect the bill after 180 days if the Senate rejects it, which it has the authority to do under the law.
    It also killed several other remaining amnesty bills in parliament in recent days.
    The Pheu Thai party’s coalition partners in the government also reassured the anti-amnesty groups that they would not support any future push by Pheu Thai MPs on amnesty bills in parliament.

    Nevertheless, the anti-amnesty protests continue to mount in Bangkok, with several business groups joining in the demonstrations.
    Three of the political groups are now calling for the overthrow of the Prime Minister, the House Speaker, and Senate Speaker, according to reports.
    In response, the red-shirt United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship has begun pro-government rallies in Bangkok and in the provinces, denouncing the anti-amnesty protesters for trying to overthrow the democratically-elected Yingluck adminstration.
    Authorities have stepped up security in Bangkok over fears violence could break out between the red-shirts and anti-government protest groups.
    - See more at: Thailand tense Monday over UN, Senate, protest clashes | Free District
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  5. #5
    Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน Hatari's Avatar
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    How often does ICJ get this many viewers? Being shown live on six Thai tv channels

    For English - live from UN
    Cambodia v. Thailand: ICJ Judgment
    The International Court of Justice (ICJ) delivers its final Judgment in the case Cambodia v Thailand on 11 November 2013
    UN Live United Nations Web TV

    They are giving all the historical background, no simple yes/no as yet.

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    The artist formally known as Wabbits Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน wabbits's Avatar
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    Power is being switched off already family away from the border for the night.
    .

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    Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน Hatari's Avatar
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    Hope for you/their/everyone's sake there's no conflict
    My understanding - Cambodia gets the disputed area?

    The 'other protest' - anti govt, there are 'teargas and rubber bullet' zones in central Bangkok, signposted as a warning to protesters. One step short of the 2010 'live firing' signs. Pics on Thairath


    Demonstrators are occupying Ratchadamnoen Avenue from Democracy Monument to Phanfa Bridge in what is expected to be the largest rally since the House of Representatives passed the blanket amnesty bill.

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    The artist formally known as Wabbits Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน wabbits's Avatar
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    6.55: #BREAKING: ICJ unanimously finds that Cambodia has sovereignty over the Preah Vihear promontory, orders Thai troops to pull out of area.

    16.42h: ICJ: “The Preah Vihear stands on clearly defined geographical features,” but ”rejects Cambodian claim that nearby Phnum Trap hill is part of Preah Vihear promontory,” in the original 1962 ruling.

    16.20h: The judges have pointed out three main point on contentions: 1) dispute whether or not demarcated line on Annex 1 map in the 1962 judgement constitutes the border, 2) a related dispute concerning the meaning of “vicinity of Cambodian territory” in 1962 verdict and 3) regarding Thailand’s obligations of placement of personnel at the border. The court accepted Cambodia’s request to interpret the 1962 ruling and has jurisdiction over the case.

    16.10h: Our own Bangkok Pundit has this ahead of the ICJ ruling: NIDA and Suan Dusit Polls show political problems for the government over the ICJ decision

    16.00h: Almost on time, the judges have arrived in the ICJ court room and will read out the ruling now. There’s also a live-stream here.

    15.55h: The past few years have seen tensions between Thailand and Cambodia that also escalated into brief firefights of its armed forces, claiming over 40 lives on both sides of the border. The last clash took place in 2011 and bilateral relations between the two countries have considerably improved ever since the government of Yingluck Shinawatra came to power, partly since her brother Thaksin is reportedly close to Cambodian leader Hun Sen. Nevertheless, it has always been a sore spot for ultra-nationalists on the Thai side, as they have constantly spewed anti-Cambodia vitriole and will also likely reject a negative outcome today.

    15.46h: Yup, that’s gonna take a while – we’re in for a long day…!
    .

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    The artist formally known as Wabbits Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน wabbits's Avatar
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    The ICJ has ruled on area of only about 1000 square metres, made no ruling on the rest that Thailand already occupies
    .

  10. #10
    Foundation Member Uber Star quiksilva's Avatar
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    Haven't followed too much about this.
    I am looking at entering Cambodia via Aranyaprathet in early January.
    Would it be recommended to not, or is purely further north only?

  11. #11
    Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน Hatari's Avatar
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    Last time when there were border skirmishes going on, Aranyaprathet/PoiPet remained open.
    The bigger. immediate impact, is on what happens this evening in Bangkok, this ruling will fuel the fires for the anti-govt protesters

    Phnom Penh Post
    The fear of violence is still prevalent in spite of repeated government appeals for calm, and assurances that both the Cambodia and Thai governments have reached an agreement to maintain peace and stability, whatever the court’s ruling.

    “There’s a commitment between both the governments, in Phnom Penh and Bangkok, that whatever the verdict is, we will implement it and keep calm,” government spokesman Phay Siphan said. “It’s a new chapter between Cambodia and the Thais, and a new era of friendship and cooperation in that area. It’s very historical.

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    Uber Star Soi wanderer Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน Moo Uaon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by quiksilva View Post
    Haven't followed too much about this.
    I am looking at entering Cambodia via Aranyaprathet in early January.
    Would it be recommended to not, or is purely further north only?
    oops just saw this one....you`ll be fine.
    FACE YOUR FEARS LIVE YOUR DREAMS

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    ประเทศไทยเพื่อน Founding Member Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน Changone's Avatar
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    For me the whole issue is faintly ridiculous. A bunch of judges trying to tell other countries what to do and where their borders are (Should be), as if it were a suburban dividing fence spat.

    The topography alone should indicate the natural border far better than any other past colonial map drawing by France or England.

    Why not ask the Israelis to hand back the Golan Heights to Syria, or get this same bunch of judges to make a ruling and tell the Israeli troops to withdraw. Bwahahaha.....good luck on both scores.

    That being said it ain't looking good for those with loved ones in the area, but I don't think they want to give up their homes to the cambos, or even have them sitting on a major piece of high ground right near the border from which to push further land claims with their artillery pieces either.

    Normal People on both sides of the border are doing ok without all this Shiite.

    Meanwhile, these UN types, the same bunch of do gooders who wouldn't take responsibility for the Cambodian refugees back in the 70's, and the self same ones who sat and watched the genocide in Africa and the Balkans would do well do get real jobs.

    Rant over.

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    Uber Star Soi wanderer Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน Moo Uaon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Changone View Post


    The topography alone should indicate the natural border far better than any other past colonial map drawing by France or England.
    Topography says it`s Thai...look at map above...there`s a sheer cliff face on the southern side.
    FACE YOUR FEARS LIVE YOUR DREAMS

  15. #15
    ประเทศไทยเพื่อน Founding Member Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน Changone's Avatar
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    On that basis, Dover should be part of France...555

  16. #16
    Platinum Mick's Avatar
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    I visited Preah Vihear shortly before the current row blew up. It is certainly a majestic location….

    The temple was one of the last strongholds of the less than majestic Khmer Rouge, who installed a large gun there. They cared little about the temple, and did some damage.

    Cambodia sought to have the area registered as a World Heritage Site, which precipitated the court case. I looked into it a bit at the time and it seemed to me that Thailand's claim on the area was weak. Based on maps drawn in the early part of the 20th century it was Cambodian, which went unchallenged by Thailand at the time. It seems they were just not interested then; the land was remote and of little agricultural value. It wasn't until the mid both century that Thailand decided to assert its claim, resulting in the 1962 court case. Continuing to assert its claim on the surrounding land seems like a case of sour grapes. Going by what has been in the local press of late, it seems the powers that be almost expected the decision would come down in favour of Cambodia's claim in the end.

    I would have thought that agreeing to jointly administer the area would have been a reasonable. Access is quite easy from the Thai side, but there is a road up from the Cambodian side. I guess where face is involved there can be neither reason nor compromise.

    This idea of sacrosanct national borders and sovereignty is a fairly recent concept anyway. It wan't until the colonial powers started going around the world and started carving it up into nations that it started. Even then borders could be changed and land could be exchanged fairly readily. The USA bought Alaska from Russia. Thailand and the colonial power, UK, agreed to carve up what was once the Pattani Kingdom on what is now the Thai Malaysia border. The feelings of the local people would not have been considered in those days.

    It is interesting, and pleasing, to see much of Europe revert to a less bordered state, though it seems that few English folk want to have much to do with with that.

  17. #17
    The artist formally known as Wabbits Thai Dreamer ผู้เพ้อฝัน wabbits's Avatar
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    ^^Fair summation and echos a lot of what I hear from MW..
    Most would not dispute the temple precinct but changing the border radically might be an issue.

    Face is always going to be an issue as you say....But this article seems to suggest both sides gained face.
    Also makes me hope that things will move on quietly.

    Even-handed temple ruling cools heat in Thailand, Cambodia
    Published: 11 Nov 2013 at 19.28Online news: Security
    Both Thailand and Cambodia were claiming victory Monday after the International Court of Justice (ICJ) ruled on disputed border territory near an 11th-century temple, but tempers seemed to be cooling in both countries.

    The court ruled that Cambodia's sovereignty extends to all of the natural promontory bearing the monument, but rejected its claim to a nearby hill, called Phnum Trap in Cambodian and Phu Makua in Thai.

    The decision essentially leaves Thailand and Cambodia to decide between them on most of the 4.6 square kilometres adjacent to the temple that were the source of the recent conflict, analysts said.

    "I think it was a success for the Thai team that they convinced the court not to rule on the sovereignty of the disputed territory," said Puongthong Pawakapan, a political scientist at Chulalongkorn University.

    "It's still considered overlapping territory, so the two sides will need to negotiate it further," she said.

    Thailand may have lost a small portion of the territory it originally claimed, she conceded.

    In Phnom Penh, Information Minister Khieu Kanharith said on his Facebook page: "This is the victory of all the nation and the reward to the political maturity of the current Royal government of Cambodia."

    Phay Siphan, spokesman for the Council of Ministers, was more constrained.

    "For both governments, Phnom Penh and Bangkok, the common ground is peace," he said.

    The ICJ is no stranger to the Preah Vihear temple conflict.

    In 1962, when asked to arbitrate on the sovereignty of the 11th century Hindu temple perched on a cliff that defines the Thai-Cambodian border, the court judged in Cambodia's favour.

    But the court stopped short of ruling on the border, which was not part of Cambodia's request, leaving open an opportunity for future disputes on the 4.6 square kilometres of land adjacent to the temple.

    In 2011, Cambodia sought a clarification from the ICJ on the 1962 ruling, with regards to the disputed land.

    The judgment comes as Thai Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra is reeling from more than a week of mounting protests against a government proposition to amnesty all political crimes, including corruption, committed from 2003 to 2013.

    The bill is seen as designed to allow the return of her brother and former premier, Thaksin Shinawatra, living abroad to avoid a jail sentence for abuse of power.

    Ms Yingluck and her ruling Pheu Thai Party have backed away from the legislation, vowing not to push it into law if the Senate rejects it, but distrust is running deep among the anti-government protesters.

    The relative equanimity of Monday's ruling avoided a destabilising effect on Yingluck's government that might have resulted if the decision had been more clearly against Thailand, observers said.

    "This ruling is not going to play into the hands of the anti-government protesters," said Thitinan Phongsudhirak, director of the Institute of Security and International Studies in Bangkok.

    "The protesters still have traction from the anti-amnesty movement but they have missed getting more fuel for the fire from the Preah Vihear ruling," he said.

    The territorial dispute re-erupted in July 2008, when Cambodia submitted Preah Vihear for listing as a UNESCO World Heritage site without resolving the sovereignty issue over the adjacent area, seemingly with Thailand's permission.

    The listing provoked anti-government protests in Bangkok, armed clashes on the border and a steep deterioration in relations between the two neighbours.

    Thai-Cambodian relations are much improved since then. The Cambodian People's Party, led by Hun Sen, and Thailand's ruling Pheu Thai Party, de facto led by Thaksin from overseas, are close.

    "Both sides are satisfied with the court's decision," said Thai Foreign Minister Suraphong Tovichaichaikul, speaking at the Hague.
    .

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