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Thread: Terrible train - truck accident at Saraphi

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    Terrible train - truck accident at Saraphi

    There was a Terrible train - truck accident at Saraphi. Apparently there were 7 or 8 people killed. If it is the busy crossing I often use there is no electric warning lights or barrier. It happened during that heavy rain storm on the 24th. From recent reports, the trains from Chiang Mai to Lamphun have increased their speeds to 100 km/hr. In terrible conditions there would be very little visibility at that busy crossing.

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    It's no wonder that these tragedies happen.

    Thailands continuing reluctance to implement basic health and safety measures whilst concentrating on other pointless social policies is a joke.

    That's all I'm going to say.... the rest of it isn't civil or polite.
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    7 killed as train hits truck in heavy rain | Bangkok Post: news

    I can tell ya, this wouldn't happen here.... not talking about the accident, they do happen here often enough, but how quickly they got the train moving afterwards

    "The accident forced the train to stop for 30 minutes before it travelled on."
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    I just rode through the area in question and wonder how it happened. I'm sure the terrible storm had something to do with the visibility, but you would think under those conditions that SOMEBODY would slow down and take extra caution? I heard most of those killed were Thai-yai workers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Forbes View Post
    From recent reports, the trains from Chiang Mai to Lamphun have increased their speeds to 100 km/hr. In terrible conditions there would be very little visibility at that busy crossing.
    no way in the world the train would be doing that speed,especially there nor anywhere between CM>BKK.
    i was on one 9 months ago and my GPS showed not much more than 85k's in the fastest stretches. don't mean it's not going to wipe out a pickup load of thais though.

    i thought all the level crossings down there had at least lights and i thought boom gates.
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    I'm just going by what I was told, Lew, by a guy who had the train pass him on the road that parallels the track.. Where the accident occurred had lights but no boom gate. I drove by there tonight. Probably too many passengers in the truck and it restricted the driver's vision. I can't imagine anyone sitting in the back in that weather.

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    I don't know what the track speed there is, but I thought I had read, that they had spent a bucket load of money on resleepering the line with concrete sleepers. I don't know if they have done the section where the accident occurred, but if they have, the speeds would have been increased. That was the point of the resleepering, to increase speeds and decrease transit times along with improving reliability.. Wasn't the northern line closed while they were doing the resleepering after many derailments? When I was in Hua Hin a couple of months back, there was train load after train load of concrete sleepers, heading south through there every day... for doing the southern line. So the work is being done on that route as well.

    As for the crossing, in the pic in the BKK post, it seems to have only passive protection. It appears to be only protected by warning signs, but there could be lights and bells (siren) but I can't see it in the photo. We still have many level crossings with only passive protection.

    The behaviour of car drivers, thinking they can beat a train at a level crossing is not exclusive to Thailand. You would not believe the amount of idiots who try it on here as well.. It is very very hard to judge the speed of an oncoming train sitting in a vehicle... Trains quite often, are travelling much faster than they appear to be, and the type of train involved in the accident, takes a decent distance to pull up, even when an emergency brake application is made.
    Last edited by dave01; 26th March 2015 at 07:35.
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    all the derailments and track closures for repairing the line was down near Lampang-Den Chai and Uttaradit where it passes through the tunnel and mountainous parts where the land had given way under it and damaged the tracks and caused many derailments.
    closer to CM it's flat and relatively stable and only the one derailment near the station when moving a couple of carriages backwards.





    the trains i've been on travelled through the Saraphi part of the trip fairly slowly and made an exercise out of sounding the horn long and loud approaching all the level crossings through there.
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    On just a personal guess I would think Moo Uaon is correct that the train would not have been going 100 km/hr. That seems awfully fast. However, there had been a recent upgrade of the tracks in that area and train speeds have increased. It is a level, dead straight piece of track for 20 kms and trains could reach maximum speed... what ever that is. It still comes down to error in judgement on the part of the truck driver with more than a full load of passengers in very nasty conditions. I looked at the photo of the smashed truck in relation to the crossing where it was hit and it was blasted a fair distance. It is a very sad situation and some families won't have a father today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dave01 View Post
    I don't know what the track speed there is, but I thought I had read, that they had spent a bucket load of money on resleepering the line with concrete sleepers. I don't know if they have done the section where the accident occurred, but if they have, the speeds would have been increased. That was the point of the resleepering, to increase speeds and decrease transit times along with improving reliability.. Wasn't the northern line closed while they were doing the resleepering after many derailments? When I was in Hua Hin a couple of months back, there was train load after train load of concrete sleepers, heading south through there every day... for doing the southern line. So the work is being done on that route as well.

    As for the crossing, in the pic in the BKK post, it seems to have only passive protection. It appears to be only protected by warning signs, but there could be lights and bells (siren) but I can't see it in the photo. We still have many level crossings with only passive protection.

    The behaviour of car drivers, thinking they can beat a train at a level crossing is not exclusive to Thailand. You would not believe the amount of idiots who try it on here as well.. It is very very hard to judge the speed of an oncoming train sitting in a vehicle... Trains quite often, are travelling much faster than they appear to be, and the type of train involved in the accident, takes a decent distance to pull up, even when an emergency brake application is made.
    Dave curious to know how the braking system of a modern train works. Understanding that the different coefficients of friction would change as different temps and dew points during the day. Emergency brakes is that computer controlled? Or like an ABS system. I would imagine once locked / skid it would take longer. Is it done by reversing an electric motor or more physical? Also why are train wheels called tyres?
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    ^ i think some of them use sand for more traction?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontymate View Post
    Dave curious to know how the braking system of a modern train works. Understanding that the different coefficients of friction would change as different temps and dew points during the day. Emergency brakes is that computer controlled? Or like an ABS system. I would imagine once locked / skid it would take longer. Is it done by reversing an electric motor or more physical? Also why are train wheels called tyres?
    Something I can talk about 555

    With the train involved in the accident, it relies on a brake pipe continuous through the train, this is achieved by connected rubber brake pipe hoses between each car... and controlled by the the Drivers Brake Valve in the leading cab. The air is supplied by compressor on each loco... the air produced, is used to charge the BP to about 500 kpa, charge the water/toilet system on the cars, as well as providing control air for locomotive... When the BP is fully charged, the brakes are fully released... By reducing the Brake Pipe Pressure, via the Drivers brake valve, the brakes will apply.. To release the brakes, just place the DBV in the running position and the Main Reservoir will recharge the brake pipe.

    Remember, the vast majority of locos in Thailand are pretty dated.... and I don't know if they have Dynamic Brake operational on their locos... I have not heard a loco in dynamic when in Thailand.... The sound is unmistakable. If you hear a loco screaming while slowing down, what you are hearing is the traction motors in effect being turned into generators, working in the opposite direction to motoring.. This creates excess electricity, which is routed to the roof of the loco and burnt on the dynamic grids... When I used to drive the old locos, it was not unusual to have a fire on the grids if they were covered in oil etc... With the old locos, depending on the load, they will slow you down to about 10 or 15 kph.... the new locos have what is called extended range dynamic, and that will bring you to a complete stop.

    On the things I drive, which are the same as the British HST 125's, the braking system is different... We have 2 systems... One called EP, Electro Pneumatic, which is shadowed by a very similar system as the one described above.. The difference in the 2 systems is, EP energises a wire throughout the train which allows MR air directly into the brake cylinders without reducing the BP. It is far easier to handle a train with EP, because the reactions from the train are pretty well immediate.. no lag in application or release. If the EP fails, we have the back up system to use, which is fail safe.

    In the accident above, I think the driver of the train, when he realised what was about to go down, would have thrown his DBV to full emergency and then held on... at that point there is nothing more that can be done. I believe it was wet weather, but that does not mean the train will skid necessarily... If it is heavy rain, and there have been a few trains over the track, it 9 times out of 10 will not skid.. The tracks get cleaned of oil and crap by heavy rain and traffic... It also depends ALOT on what the Brake Cylinder pressure settings are on the cars and the locos.. On our trains, it is very hard to skid the wheels, because of an anti slide circuit...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moo Uaon View Post
    ^ i think some of them use sand for more traction?
    The sand is used when lifting a load, and is only available on the driving wheels of the locomotive... ON modern locos, sand is not available above certain speeds... Some trains, mine included, don't have sand, and if it is slippery, you have to manage wheel slip, by *judicious use* of the throttle.
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    I highly doubt if the train could have stopped under any condition or type of brake. I believe the truck driver just didn't see the train at all and crossed in front of it without realizing it was there. Years ago, I was riding my motorbike in Port Alberni at night at a point where train tracks angled across a road with neither lights or a guard fence. A loaded logging train was entirely across the road and I didn't see it at all until the last moment when I was barely able to stop. I stopped about 3 feet from the tracks. I still remember the shock I felt when I realized there was a train in front of me.

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    Thanks Dave
    That's interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dave01 View Post
    Something I can talk about 555

    With the train involved in the accident, it relies on a brake pipe continuous through the train, this is achieved by connected rubber brake pipe hoses between each car... and controlled by the the Drivers Brake Valve in the leading cab. The air is supplied by compressor on each loco... the air produced, is used to charge the BP to about 500 kpa, charge the water/toilet system on the cars, as well as providing control air for locomotive... When the BP is fully charged, the brakes are fully released... By reducing the Brake Pipe Pressure, via the Drivers brake valve, the brakes will apply.. To release the brakes, just place the DBV in the running position and the Main Reservoir will recharge the brake pipe.

    Remember, the vast majority of locos in Thailand are pretty dated.... and I don't know if they have Dynamic Brake operational on their locos... I have not heard a loco in dynamic when in Thailand.... The sound is unmistakable. If you hear a loco screaming while slowing down, what you are hearing is the traction motors in effect being turned into generators, working in the opposite direction to motoring.. This creates excess electricity, which is routed to the roof of the loco and burnt on the dynamic grids... When I used to drive the old locos, it was not unusual to have a fire on the grids if they were covered in oil etc... With the old locos, depending on the load, they will slow you down to about 10 or 15 kph.... the new locos have what is called extended range dynamic, and that will bring you to a complete stop.

    On the things I drive, which are the same as the British HST 125's, the braking system is different... We have 2 systems... One called EP, Electro Pneumatic, which is shadowed by a very similar system as the one described above.. The difference in the 2 systems is, EP energises a wire throughout the train which allows MR air directly into the brake cylinders without reducing the BP. It is far easier to handle a train with EP, because the reactions from the train are pretty well immediate.. no lag in application or release. If the EP fails, we have the back up system to use, which is fail safe.

    In the accident above, I think the driver of the train, when he realised what was about to go down, would have thrown his DBV to full emergency and then held on... at that point there is nothing more that can be done. I believe it was wet weather, but that does not mean the train will skid necessarily... If it is heavy rain, and there have been a few trains over the track, it 9 times out of 10 will not skid.. The tracks get cleaned of oil and crap by heavy rain and traffic... It also depends ALOT on what the Brake Cylinder pressure settings are on the cars and the locos.. On our trains, it is very hard to skid the wheels, because of an anti slide circuit...
    Thanks dave gives me some insite. In an electric modern train though the energy generated by breaking is that stored in capacitors to be use later or is it just dissipated? Am I right in saying if one of the air hoses fails(anywhere in the system).... the breaks apply or is there another redundancy measure?

    Unrelated...... Has the DuPont safety system ever been thrust upon you in NSW?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontymate View Post
    Thanks dave gives me some insite. In an electric modern train though the energy generated by breaking is that stored in capacitors to be use later or is it just dissipated? Am I right in saying if one of the air hoses fails(anywhere in the system).... the breaks apply or is there another redundancy measure?

    Unrelated...... Has the DuPont safety system ever been thrust upon you in NSW?
    If the BP hoses come apart, you lose BP pressure and the brakes apply throughout. If you have a coupling failure, it can get interesting, if the rear portion of the train is slower stopping than the front portion.... it will run into the front portion, sometimes with enough force to cause real damage or a derailment...

    In a fully electric train, like those operated in NSW... When they use Regenerative Braking, which is basically the same a Dynamic on a diesel electric loco, the energy produced, is returned to the overhead, via the pantograph on the roof of the train, and can be used again, to provide power for the next train and so on. On diesel electrics, the energy produced, is routed to grids on the roof and lost.

    As for the safety system, no...
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave01 View Post
    7 killed as train hits truck in heavy rain | Bangkok Post: news

    I can tell ya, this wouldn't happen here.... not talking about the accident, they do happen here often enough, but how quickly they got the train moving afterwards

    "The accident forced the train to stop for 30 minutes before it travelled on."
    Here is the same. The line would be closed and Accident Inspectors would be all over the place. Until they were satisfied that they had a good handle on the reason and contributing factors, nothing would go down that line. Same thing applies with serious road accidents.

    That process can take half a day.
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    last night . . . train v train



    Reckless driving blamed for train collision
    March 27, 2015 10:17 am
    More than 50 passengers were injured, two seriously, when a Bangkok-Denchai passenger train rammed at the rear of the Bangkok-Nong Khai train near Phachee district of Ayutthaya last night.

    Reckless driving was blamed as cause of the incident which happened as the State Railways of Thailand celebrated its 118th establishment anniversary yesterday.

    The rare collision which engaged two trains occurred at about 10.00 pm between Marb Phrachan and Phrakaew railway stations in Phachee district.

    It was the third serious accident in less than two weeks when earlier yesterday a train hit a pickup truck killing its driver in Trang, and seven Myanmar migrant workers were killed when the pickup truck they travelled in was crashed by a passenger train in Chiang Mai.

    The governor said reckless driving was blamed to be the cause.

    He said the driver of the No 107 Bangkok-Denchai express train was supposed to wait before getting the green light to go.

    However he might be in a haste and drove off thinking that the No 69 Bangkok-Nong Khai train might has already departed the substation, not knowing the train he was trailing behind was still on the track.


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